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TPG To AussieBroadband - Was It A Mistake

(Last updated, December 13, 2022...)

Well, we've managed to survive the horrors of the world thus far and made it to April 2022, so as promised, here is an update on how the Aussie Broadband experience has been.

The positives - Front of house Level 2 support are terrific, FTTN reliability is excellent (but that's NBN not ABB), the speed is OK, and only outages I've experienced are a few pre planned NBN outages and a couple of ABB's middle of the night maintenance tasks, but from now on it goes down hill.

The negatives - well... Easter 2022 a few things became very clear, their developers are incompetent, there seems little to no procedural policies for back of house engineers and developers, or they simply don't care or follow them, IPv6 is a mess that should never have been moved from beta into production, there is a lot more to it than just routing packets.

I'll say upfront right now that if you don't care about IPv6, don't know what IPv6 is, do nothing out of the ordinary with your connection, don't need or use custom IPv4 reverse address or run anything you need to remotely connect to - which would be greater than 99% of their customer base anyway, I'd say go for it if they tick your other boxes.

If you just want to be the cool kid on the block and surf the net with IPv6 and don't care if it works (OS's failover back to IPv4 automagically) I'd also say go for it if it ticks your other boxes, because if any of the following happens to you, you likely wont care.

But if you're an advanced user, run services, need custom PTR entries, or require IPv6 for remote access to other networks, the choice is not as clear cut, but once you opt in, do NOT try to edit anything on the IPv6 page, or you'll be opted out losing your address range - a known problem since at least Aug/Sep 2021. So if like me, you need and require reliability with IPv6 - forget it, your addresses are not locked to you. [read update at end]

I've lost my IPv6 addresses three times now, the last two times both within the last few weeks, A senior netops engineer restored it for me March 31, but in ABB's attempt to delegate the /48 DNS back to me on April 9, their NSOC again wiped me out and assigned new IP range, I'm told "they're all over it" - this was April 12 and not a word since. (Maybe the "all over it" meant everyone's "so over it, go away" ;-) ) and since they gave me a third new range to use, they consider I have one if I want IPv6 badly enough, so they probably don't see any problem exists, even though I can not manage them.

The problems stem from when modifying name servers in delegation on ipv6beta page (note, even in production, this is the only place we can delegate from), clicking edit, allows to enter in the name server, (one of only, of course nowhere do they say you can actually only enter in one NS), and hitting enter is the only way to move forward on that page with no specific submit button, the form then produces a “Are you sure?” popup, one assumes this means "Are you sure you want to change/save the DNS entry?", but of course it does not say what it wants you to be sure about, that's up to our imagination, so clicking OK, then not only clears the DNS server delegation, it actually cancels the opt-in and revokes IPv6 on your service, again, they have known about this since last year, yet they still took this into production, and 6 months later thinking it must surely be fixed by now, I tried to set a secondary NS (again, no mention of saying you can't actually do that - I only found out from one of many conversations with their staff), hit enter, again it asks only "Are you sure?" clicking ok, BANG.. it immediately opted me out of IPv6 - I was speechless, they did nothing to fix this, and weeks later when they tried to do something to my account, they broke me again.

Moving on, I informed L2 Support I understand the latest range is delegated but I was not about to renumber (I static IP, it makes network management simpler) so I'll leave my IP configs as they are and wait till they resolve it so things will just start working again, of course I did this thinking a couple workdays maybe at the most, but the days (weeks) keep rolling by with nothing.

I do pay extra for a static IP address, but apparently this only extends to IPv4.

And now, since about April 9, I've been unable to access even the normal myaussie portal at all, I thought "great" they must be working on it", but as time (days) went by, I concluded they took a coffee break and forgot all about me.

April 21 I was fed up and fired off an email, basically to be told it's not a simple fix (no, but any competent dev could resolve this is in a day if they were tasked to it, they could resolve it for any customer who tickets the same issue within minutes, but it must be too hard for poor devs to manually alter a database row to keep the paying customers happy.

Because they don't know what's going on, netops will not restore my assigned IPv6 range again because it might interfere with their developers work (pffft what work) so I've given up on it. I tried to get HE tunnels working again but to no avail, ABB still haven't found the error on their BNG that's denying me that too, I used to use H.E. tunnels for ipv6, worked flawlessly on Exetel and TPG for over 11 years, moved to ABB and no worky - perhaps I should have heard the alarm bells sounding back then.

Anyway, the main point of the latest email was the fact I still can't login to the portal, (about 2 weeks now), but again, I'm told they see no reason why I can't login, so I asked for them to tell me when my creds were last changed and by whom, since I never did (the same creds are stored in multiple devices and an encrypted password file) and their CRM should have all this logged or recorded in a database, so lets see what transpires.

Don't get me wrong, the L2 guy I've mostly dealt with (Felix) has been understanding, and really tried to help, L2 have done their job, and I'm very appreciative of their efforts, but those guys can only do so much themselves, relying on other departments (ie: developers, system admins) to actually do their fucking job, and that's where it is failing.

I've worked in ISP netops myself for a long time, senior roles too, and I know things happen, but I can assure you that any of my previous employers would be seeing red if this dragged out saga occurred, heads would have rolled, even my head would have rolled for allowing this to happen on my watch, not only for customers to be locked out and forgotten, but for allowing known broken/destructive code to remain in active use for so long, and then, take that into a production environment - the latter being grounds for instant dismissal for gross negligence.

Late on April 28, ABB admitted to me an engineer in their NSOC changed my password and did something on my account, that has as of this evening been cleared and I am now able to log back into my portal again.

Yet another process needs cleaning up to include communicating with the customer when you're about to do things on their account that stops them logging in for three weeks, it seems AussieBroadbands back of house staff have no procedure policies in place to follow.

June 10 Update
On Tuesday, June 7, I decided to bite the bullet and try adding IPv6 back, since its clear ABB developers have not done squat to resolve my ticket in nearly two months. This time I find it wont let me opt-in, so I fired off an email to L2 who replied a few hours later apologising and issued me IPv6, restarting my router picked them up, all good.

The new allocation was not appearing on ipv6beta page, so next day I asked them for - you guessed it - DNS delegation, this was later advised as done, but 24 hours later it wasn't (nearly a week later finding out why, the CSR actually changed the PTR entry on my IPv4 address, so did not read or understand the request and blindly made changes, at no point in that tickets history was there any reference to IPv4 which worked flawlessly - until mail conflicts due to the changed PTR records) anyway, on Friday June 10 2022, I informed L2 the delegation wasn't playing ball, thankfully our regular friendly and helpful L2 Felix was back on deck and fixed the PTR, but had to pass the rest to engineering, after being told I cant edit them, engineering were seemingly not so believing as I was asked to send screen shots of what I see, obviously so engineering can see I'm not full of it, and do have working IPv6, but no access to manage it, a reply soon after was to the effect the engineer was "shocked" I can't manage it (how he/she can be surprised I don't know, it is after all one of the key things going on here with this ticket for over two months, perhaps they are a new hire, perhaps its sums up engineering's care factor in all this time).

I actually feel for Felix, being the front line guy who as to deal with people like me, and the back end incompetence hides with no customer interaction or seemingly any accountability.

June 13 rolled around and we now know why some issues are occurring, this of course still has nothing to do with why nobody has fixed my database entry, or at least the wording on the ipv6beta page, saying only one DNS server for delegation, or altering the alert confirmation box to read Are you sure you want to opt-out, that last one alone would save a lot of grief to a number of people, and this article would never have existed because the problems would not have occurred, but it has, and its led to the many failures of ABB being exposed - all because one developer couldn't be fucked writing a proper html form.


To sum it up, Aussie Broadband are no different than any other RSP/ISP regardless of what they try advertise with this shiny "No Bullshit" motto advertising - which is in fact complete utter bullshit itself, one could also say they are actually worse.

Am I remaining with them? Well, the IPv4 side is rock stable and reliable, so for the time being at least, perhaps.

(update) As it's now August 31 and no change or any word and still unable to manage my IPv6, the likelihood of me remaining becomes less each day.

If I leave this joke of an RSP, you can sit there and say, well they'll be glad to see the back of you - you wont get any arguments from me, I'm very accepting that is what they are hoping happens, but the very problems detailed here, will still exist, they have not been fixed, so be careful with your laughter, because one day, it wont be me pissed at their inactions, it might be YOU! ;-)


December '22 Update - ABB withdraw the IPv6 Management Page

It has just been brought to my attention, and I've verified it, the /ipv6beta.php page has been removed, you are now redirected to the normal myaussie login page, I've also had verified from ABB the page is gone, of course, I had to reach out to them, because, well, why would they bother telling me, it's only taken them since September 2021 but finally they pulled it.

This of course means there is no longer any method to manage your IPv6, those who previously had the DNS delegation I'm led to understand still have it, but those without, who want it, can no longer for the foreseeable future, delegate, it's clear support can not do this, else this entire article would never have existed, I guess a few people got bitten by this, because one thing is for sure, they sure as hell didn't act because of my ongoing ticket, and as I suspected, following an anonymous tip off with information that could only be known by an ABB employee, the suspicion my ticket was silently closed some time back and staff directed not to follow up with me, was correct, supported by the fact my monthly "we haven't forgot you" emails, stopped months ago.

At least one of my key gripes is resolved, the destructive and poorly written code is gone, preventing other poor souls suffering the same fate as I and others already have. It's been a few months now and my IPv6 hasn't vanished, but I only hope that they do reintroduce this self management ability, only this time written by someone competent, and I trust they will actually QC it, test, test, and test it... before it is made public.



December 28 '22 Update - IPv6 NS Delegation Returns?

NS delegation has been re-enabled, however, it's not manageable, jump to the comment.

With a bit of luck, my next, and hopefully final update of this article, will be when they provide an option for us to self manage them again, that's the last outstanding major point.



  • The images used in this article are Creative Commons licensed, or Proprietary Copyright Property of their respective owners used here without permission under Australian Copyright Law's Fair Dealings Exemption.



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Juzza on :

Hey man, I was almost going to sign with these dudes till I read this, so my question is, did they fix it all and apologise for locking you out? That is a TIO call in my books.

NoelB on :

No, they have not fixed anything, ipv6 or portal login both still MIA.

Delfin on :

This is terrible treatment by aussiebroadband, I thought they were different, just finished reading both the articles, it is like two different companies. I have to say I'm saddened at how unprofessional aussie have become. This started in March? It's now nearly June so I guess your all fixed up now, but I don't see any updates so despite curiosity killing the cat, this kitty will ask anyway?

Jesse on :

I would never stay with an ISP who treats me so bad, I get you want them to get their shit together but I hope you're not holding onto your breath. I remember the days of other ISPs who made themselves out to be our saviours, they all be gone today, tick tock Aussie Broadband tick tock.

NoelB on :

I've remained because for most part the service still works, ipv4 is flawless, the PTR issue for last week or so can be fixed quick and is only 4xx erroring at some remote servers so far as I can tell, as for ipv6 issues, if no one makes a noise, where is their incentive to fix the thing...

Lariken on :

What a sad situation, I never thought Aussie Broadband were such a tin-pot operation, that's really worrisome they are so stupid and care free about us, I don't use ip6 just normal internet, but I think if this is how we are treated, I should start looking at other ISPs, just in case, after all Aussie are not the cheapest ISP around.

It has always bothered me Phil Brit goes on whirlpool telling us he has no margins and his costs are up and needs to put up our price last year, then a few weeks later the Big Bash started, and we see where those price increases really went to with all that branding team which can not be cheap, so short of funds he can afford to do that, I was mad as hell and nearly changed ISP's then, so it wont take much for me to change for sure next time there's lies or problems.

Juzza on :

So dude, you don't have reverse dns yet still, I just looked ya up, are you not bothering or just preparing for when aussie mess with your allocation again ? :-D

NoeL on :

lol bit of both

but no, I still can't set them, and since I've discovered how incompetent their engineering/devs are, I'd actually be more surprised now days if they did actually fix it, I mean it is so simple to edit a database or profile to delegate or assign, afterall thats all that useless page does, its a php mysqli insert to a database, they really could have fixed this 3 months ago in under a minute if they wanted to, but again, ABB's care factor is less than zero.

It's not like I was a high maint customer prior to this, I've not needed to contact them since my initial connection to them which had bad line for vdsl (as per my original article), and my HE tunnel not working, ohhhhh and that's right port unblocking did not work for me in their portal and they had to fix it their end, but thats all within a week or so when I first connected, some 18 months back, until this cropped up never needed to speak to them.

Tony the Network Engineer on :

Anyone else find yesterdays email ammusing?

"We're introducing some fantastic new changes to how your account's security will work.
Our team has been working hard to create two-factor authentication for your account.
"

^^^ Only because the ACMA ordered it to be so

"
This will ensure that someone who isn't meant to have access to your account, won't be able to change anything or purchase expensive hardware in your name.

We've got your back!
"
^^^^ Only because ACMA ordered it.

The deadline was the day you enabled it, yesterday, Aussie if you "had our backs" you would have done this from the start, or at least when ACMA floated the idea, not wait until the very last day you had to enable it before they'd punish you for failing to meet the code.

Allysa on :

Thanks for your thoughts, your original blog post seemed like great things had come, but it's always later on you find out what an ISP is really like, like your follow up post right here, nice to know aussie don't care about their customers, I didn't think anyone could be worse than Telstra, I'm out of contract with them in 2 weeks, I had decided it was aussie or future broadband.

Not being one to go off of one bad report, google presented me with a few blogs and forum threads where different people have problems with aussies ipv6, and doesn't seem anyone is doing anything about it, so that's all I need to know to make my decision on my new provider.

I do disagree though in your article the advice you say "if you don't care about ipv6 then just sign up with aussie", because you outlined all the failures you experienced, not just their technical failures but also the customer treatment failures, which I'd argue is a very huge thing in making a decision on which ISP to sign up to, and I see here multiple levels of staff not doing anything, hope things get better for you some day even if as it sounds, you've given up on them fixing it.

Allysa on :

Just a little update for you NoelB, I went with Future Broadband, speeds are maxed out, customer services, although only needing to talk with them once since churning, know their stuff, no paying for static IP or DNS, reliability fantastic.

I see you still don't have IPv6 DNS, that's really pathetic treatment from aussie broadband, it's August for christ sakes.

You should email Phil Brit directly and tell him what you think of his engineers, and does he really know anything about what is going on in his company.

Future Broadband have a referrer program, if you want my code please let me know when you're ready to jump the sinking ABB ship, just reply to my comment email and I'll shoot it off to you.

toodles,
Alycat

Kez on :

I'm having a few timeouts trying to hit here, you having problems again? Been following this saga for a while, your DNS is still an aussie, man, this really is a joke, you couldn't have set DNS iin myaussie, no way, this is so long you can't have, I can't beleive nearly four months and aussie have not fixed you up.

NoelB on :

ok...Thanks for letting me know, you're on ipv6 yeah? its disappeared a couple time lately... seems mines been down for 3 days this time, I'll reset it later tonight, haha it just goes from bad to worse.

And as for a joke, I wish to hell it was.

Tony the Network Engineer on :

that's pissing me off, I use my 6 address to get in through works firewall, twice in this past week alone I've unable to login without rebooting first and waiting 5 minutes for it to come back up. If I ran our network (a prominent telco) like aussie did, I think I would have lost my job 6 months ago,

whirlpool thread now has aussie broadband fan "moderator thor" in there sticking up for them, knowing that anyone who cusses them out too much will probably be penalty boxed, I wonder if that turd works for them, he seems to know a lot about their network, lets see if his zealously consumes him, there is one poster arguing with him haha poor guy probably be banned for life by tonight.

NoelB on :

Thanks for letting me know it's not just me, so its been going on for a while? I only have it enabled on the server so I wouldnt notice it normally.

I dont use whirlpool, they banned me for allegedly ghosting - all because of the vpn service I ran few years back for some work mates (and no my account wasnt banned before then either) they wouldnt accept it and accused me of deliberate ghosting, I get it, they probably hear all the excuses under the sun, but yeah, they have no interest in anything we say, its all just a game to them, I even offered to deny vpn users access to WP, nope not good enough your gone for life, its all about the power, I might one day try login and see if Im still banned, but I have no reason to think theyve unbanned me...

Solaltar on :

Bitten by their ipv6 problems myself, just goes away, ipv4 stays up, uptime 91 days, if they can assign ipv4 with no problems, they must surely be able to assign ipv6, this loss of ipv6 only started about three weeks or so back for me, so whatever they did since is the problem area. I don't run anything with it so it doesn't bother me, I'm one of the, how did you put it, "cool kids" hehe.

You really should let Phil know about it, I'm sure he will have it fixed for you if you speak to him, I can't imagine he would be too pleased to read about all this given the duration. Aussie have a complaints section for a reason, I've never had to use it so I can't speak for how good they are.

NoelB on :

my ipv6 has been stable for about a week now by looks of mrtg, thats on a north brisbane pop, I see your ip address puts you in a southern state, so maybe they are working through it all, ahhh hope I havent just jinxed it lol

Im aware of the complaints page.

Tony The Network Engineer on :

More cluster fuckery

Your connection is not private

You attempted to reach mail.aussiebroadband.com.au, but the server presented an invalid certificate.
You cannot proceed because the website operator has requested heightened security for this domain.


DigiCert expired tonight :-P

Shane on :

You'll get a kick out of this one Noely, in my morning Email roundups from ACMA guess what appeared, the lack of giving a stuff is apparently in all departments


6 September 2022

Aussie Broadband penalised $213,000 for public safety failures

Aussie Broadband Limited has paid a $213,120 infringement notice after the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) found large-scale breaches of rules intended to protect the safety of Australians.

An ACMA investigation found Aussie Broadband failed to provide customer information to the Integrated Public Number Database (IPND) on more than 30,000 occasions between November 2021 and May 2022.

The IPND is used by Triple Zero to help locate people in an emergency, for the Emergency Alert Service to warn of emergencies like flood or bushfire, and to assist law enforcement activities.

ACMA Chair Nerida O'Loughlin said Aussie Broadband's failure to upload customer information to the secure database was unacceptable and potentially put its customers' safety at risk in an emergency.

NoelB on :

knowing the care factor and calibre of their developers that actually does not surprise me, its horrifying, but somehow just not surprising.

kind of also confirms phil brit has no fucking idea whats going on in his own company, and thats a sign of very poor management right there so we cant expect better from his employees

Miky on :

All must be fixed? No posts or comments since start of last month, wowza they sure took their time, we churned away last month for other reasons and I sure don't recommend Aussie Broadband.

NoelB on :

Nope, October 15 and not fixed, I bet the page isnt fixed either, dunno, its still saying I have no ipv6, yet other portal says I do, my router says I do too.

I wonder if I try opt in again will it give me a second IP range, but it might cancel this one out knowing how hopeless their developers are, or still say i'm blocked for too many opt-ins like last time LOL (might try that right before I cancel my account with these clueless no hoppers)

NoelB on :


Hey gang, I've had a few comments posted over past few weeks wanting to know if this is fixed, well, no, it's not been - that's EIGHT MONTHS, and as I don't want this articles comments to be another 10 pages long in "is it fixed yet" posts, I'm sorry, but I wont be approving those type of posts going forward, I do thank you for your interest, I note that this is the top article on this site in views, with what appears to be non bot IPs.

Rest assured, IF aussie broadband ever do fix this, I will amend the first line of the article to indicate (and link to details in the last few lines of the article) there's been an update.

As it stands today December 3, for several months now I haven't even had the monthly "just touching base we haven't forgotten you" emails, so either Felix was too efficient and promoted to another area, or even he has given up on the useless fuckwits in dev and systems admin, (or told by senior management to silently close and discard this ticket which really seems more likely given the inaction)

NoelB on :

Article has been updated

Mike on :

Thanks for the write-up. I was going crazy when I went to check back at the beta page and it was missing to try the RDNS delegation again.

On my experience - I signed up in June 2022, and haven't had any issues with it. The IPV6 prefix delegation 'just worked' from day one. That said, I was never able to update my Reverse DNS zone delegation, and I gave up. The V6 addresses never "disappeared" or changed as you experienced, the page just never actually saved anything.

Requested it from support (as well as the v4 RDNS) - the v4 was sorted, but the V6 has never worked. I've shrugged it off.

My only gripe I have at the moment is that I cannot for the life of me get my NTP server visible over IPv6. No packets on UDP/123 are hitting my router at all according to packet traces. IPv4 - no issues.
This is with a business connection. So shrug - was hoping to add my V6 NTP server to the pool, but no can do.

NoelB on :

Hey Mike,
Yeah they really have no clue on ipv6 :-)

As for NTP, can you reach the port by using netcat?
in case you're not familiar with it...
on server shutdown ntp then run nc -u -l -p 123
( thats -l for listen)
on your remote machine run nc -u your_servers_ip 123
and type gibberish, then look in servers nc window and see if that gibberish appears, if so, the routing is there, if not and your routers is set to pass it ipv6 udp to it, then ABB need to fix it.

Best of luck there :-)

Mike on :

So an update to this NTP issue. Turns out it never was Aussie broadband.
The Huawei managed switch that I had was somehow dropping UDP port 123 packets on IPv6 only. Picked it up when things weren't working internally together.

The switch has a vlan that sits between my NTD and router for the public side due you the physical locations of each.

Now, how the heck is even possible for a layer 2 switch to drop the one particular packet I am totally baffled by, but it was proven with nmap and Wireshark. Any packet crossing that switch would allow UDP 121,122,124,125 ... But all UDP 123 packets were dropped.
Replacing it with a different brand (juniper) fixed all the IPv6 NTP issues. Go figure.

Other than that, I have had zero issues with ABB IPv6 in the last 30 months of being on their plans.

NoelB on :

if only it was that simple...

Today I had a stupid reply from them, despite my detailed ticket, they reply saying they are confused about what the problem was and why am I tracerouting - and that was after level 1 spoke to level 2 /sigh/

Doesn't say much about aussie broadbands care factor when level 2 asks that as L2 person clearly did not read the ticket. Level 1 guy did the correct thing, as he passed it to level 2, and I think the L1 guy understood it more than the L2 idiot.

vinnie on :

They loose John Alexander this week, apparently he is career changing, hard to beleive.

Glassdoor reviews for aussie broadband, we see who the suckups are, and the genuine. As to why you got nowhere noel, its in this review "Management is terrible" and "they pay just above minimum wage" you hit nail on the head, their staff just don't care, do you remember the old saying, pay peanuts get monkies?

Then there are other reviews like
"Managment is a joke"
"they make the workplace actively hostile"
"toxic positivity"
"obssesed with grow instead of restoring ancient computer systems"
"hawkish towards people with illness often harrassing with calls of guilt recovering staff to work"
"communication between more technical teams to others is not always clear causing lasting issues"

and there's unfair firing, bullying in workplace and doing nothing, they play favourites"

I should probably stop now yeah? and multiple reviewers by teh way, same same things, so it aint just one pissed off dude, its a lot of pissed off dudes and dudettes.

glassdoor.com.au and search aussie broadband in employer box
for these and much more

NoelB on :

I was hesitant to approve this post, a lot of serious accusations, so after a bit of thought I needed to see some evidence before approval, I went to glassdoor (not impressed I had to sign up to read reviews, pretty scummy tactic, but luckily for me I have an abundance of throw-away email accounts), I spent about 25 mins reading the 4 pages of reviews... words escape me...

I mean, that's just... incredible... the seriousness of how toxic their workplace allegedly is off the scale, but there is too many supportive reviews and as they say, where there's smoke, there's fire, and they seem to have a Californian wildfire going on.

Tony the Network Engineer on :

Congratulations! I see you finally got these lazy pricks to fix your DNS delegations, it's only taken you, what, 8 months? ROFL

0.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.d.3.f.1.a.0.8.5.3.0.4.2.ip6.arpa domain name pointer valhalla.ausics.net.

This saga almost ran as long as some of those heinous US sitcoms

NoelB on :

wow.... just fell off the chair.... ok, ummm when did that happen I wonder, they have not advised me of anything in many months, but I know this was not the case when I posted that recent update about the ipv6beta page being vanished, so this is very new, and
verified it, yes, they are delegating to my name servers, dig +trace shows it, also testing by Telstra NS's show it, they must have grabbed the NS records from the domain and just added them since there is still no way to manage it in portal, and I couldnt manage it earlier no where to enter them for me.. someone must have finally added it manually, and since their "ticketing system" (if you can call it that) has no way for us to login and check the ticket status, that doesnt help.

to think if they did this 9 months ago, this article would never have been written, and all their other failures would never have come to light...

thanks Tony for letting me know, since ABB obviously cant be bothered.

NoelB on :

The latest issues with no IPv6 again, in January 2025, has been moved out to its own article.

https://blog.ausics.net/archives/161-More-Aussie-Broadband-Numptyness.html

As such, I have deleted the posts I made here about it, I think this one is way to long as it is.

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